Computer based audio discussion

[Ashley James]

Hullo everyone, I'm here at Marco's invitation and I'm not sure I'm a fan of Forums!

As some of you may be aware we've introduced a pair of loudspeakers called ADM9s that completely replace a conventional hi fi system and can be used with a PS3, a Macbook, a music streaming device or even an iPod. They've been unbelievably successful for us, but have caused immense controversy amongst traditionalists.

Their worry is our (truthful) claim that they replace separates costing around £6K and do a far better job.

I'm here as may be Martin to try to answer all your questions and also to persuade other experts (IT etc) to join in and do the same.

There was a Pitch Battle on Hi Fi Wigwam an month or two ago, which has resolved now as participants have bought them and are now telling everyone about them, but as it's resolved so another is under way on Pink Fish. I really pray that doesn't happen here and I welcome an opportunity to discuss them with anyone who might be interested.

Hi Fi enthusiasts seem concerned that computer can't play music, which is nonsense although to PC owners, it may not seem so. Apple Computers are different and in widespread use in the music industry to record and produce the CDs that you buy and iTunes has a vastly better user interface than a CD Player.

However the biggest worries seem to centre around compression (which is optional) or that Hard Disc aren't as good as CD mechs. The opposite is true, they are better because, in their present form, they are more sophisticated. Instead of reading in real time and guessing or muting if they aren't able to retrieve something, they keep reading and feeding information to the RAM where a Checksum is done. The computer adds up the noughts and ones and when it has them all, it plays you a tune. And it's exactly the same tune every time without guesswork. Macs even sound quite good through a headphone output, but as they have an optical digital one, they can act as a source for ADM9s or a full hi fi system.

Hi fi types have been slower than mainstream customers to cotton on to this and the mags have been slow to explain, however customers haven't and that's why ADM9s are selling so well.

[Filterlab]

...but have caused immense controversy amongst traditionalists...

Hi Ashley.

Yes, that seems to happen a lot when new technology threatens to change the face of hi-fi. As an ardent 'computer based music will never replace my main source' type of chap, imagine how surprised I was when I visited a recent show which caused me to ditch my CD player and use my Mac as a source.

Frankly, and in the words one of exhibitor, this is the future whether audiophiles like it or not. I couldn't agree more, I'm now switched and I'm off to buy myself a proper DAC this weekend as the in-built DAC is competent (and better than my £1k Musical Fidelity player) but not high end.

I think this'll be a huge subject over the next few years and you're right at the start with a highly acclaimed product.

By the way, they'll be no pitched battles here as we are a more respectful and intelligent clientele.

[Ashley James]

The fact that Philips, the main supplier of CD mechs to specialist manufacturers, have stopped making VAM 1202 www.daisy-laser.com but have stock is an indicator of the demand for CD players.

They continue to supply kits of parts with their Juke Box model which high enders and Naim use www.daisy-laser.nl and which DIY types can buy one off's of if they are interested in insurance against the future.

[Marco]

Hi Ashley,

I see you've broken your duck, and contributed with an excellent first post

This to me is the crux of the matter:

Hi Fi enthusiasts seem concerned that computer can't play music, which is nonsense although to PC owners, it may not seem so. Apple Computers are different and in widespread use in the music industry to record and produce the CDs that you buy and iTunes has a vastly better user interface than a CD Player.

There is indeed an deep-rooted perception amongst audiophiles that computers 'can't play music', at least to anything like the same standard as their 'hi-end' CD players. Like Rob, I too was of this mindset until very recently when I heard my friend's Helios media player streaming lossless FLAC files completely outperform his £6k Naim CDS2, and then recently the Robson Acoustics computer set-up at the Manchester show that Rob has referred to elsewhere.

Both these systems succeeded to 'play music' to a much higher standard than I've heard from almost any CD player, and I'm convinced that a significant part of this improvement is due to the removal of various mechanical interfaces that succeed to degrade the musical signal. Streaming music via a computer removes a whole load of 'gubbins' from the chain that is necessary when a CD player is used, and I've always been of the opinion that the less the signal is interfered with then the better the sound.

It certainly seems that companies such as AVI have wholeheartedly embraced the new technology, and at an early stage, to the degree that their products reflect the unique understanding they have of how to maximise performance and musical satisfaction with computer audio. As such, I'm looking forward to hearing your set-up at the forthcoming Bristol show at the end of the month. Perhaps some details of the system you intend to demonstrate would be useful to our members?

As an aside, I had no idea that Apple computers are different to PCs in terms of their ability to play music to a higher audiophile standard. This is intriguing! Could you please provide some more information regarding this?

Marco.

P.S Rob, I think we should move this thread to a more appropriate part of the forum. I sense the Digital Impression area is looming...

[Filterlab]

It is releatively common knowledge that Apples are the preferred computer for many industries, mainly music and design, due to their programmability (for third party software houses), stability, ease of use and outright quality. In fact Apples are now becoming that tool of choice for film directors as well, the recent film '300' was edited entirely on a Mac Pro using 'Final Cut Pro'. We're not talking some super mega powered custom Apple here, we're talking an off the shelf Mac Pro that anyone can buy from an Apple centre.

Anyway, as far as user interfaces go Apple hold the crown - anyone who has used one will attest to that. The same applies to flexibility of use within applications. For music production I was sorely tempted to go for Logic (which my mate uses) but to be frank the standard and free Garageband is ample enough to easily create a 32 track mix using live and processed instrument. Ok so it has some limitations, only allowing a maximum of 8 'open source' tracks per song but that's more than enough for most. And to be honest the same applies for all of Apple's applications, iTunes being a prime example as it is simplicity itself combined with flexibility and comprehensive features.

As for sound quality there's a lot of debate as to which file type sounds best. Leaving the lossy compression formats aside there is quite a selection of lossless formats available. On Windows the best is generally said to be FLAC, its equivalent on Apple is AIFF - basically completely uncoded and uncompressed. There is also Apple Lossless encoding which has been receiving praise from transformed audiophiles across the globe, however since it is an encoding I personally wonder if there is some form of compression going on there. An AIFF file is large - generally around 50-60meg per track, the same track in Apple Lossless is 25-30meg which would suggest some compression. The format is however still lossless so in essence the music should not be affected.

The best result I've obtained as far as playback quality goes has been using AIFF, whether that will change once I get my new DAC I couldn't say, maybe I'll have to re-import my CDs using Apple Lossless. What I do know is that even the standard output DAC on my iMac sounds far more competent that the Musical Fidelity player ever did - much less artificial and more musical whilst retaining detail. How good it'll sound once I pop the new DAC on is something I'm really looking forward to.

Sound quality AND flexibility. Now that's the way forward.

[Ashley James]

Blimey! There's a lot of information here that I should respond to.

PC's and Music.

These will play music via a good quality DAC as well as an Apple Computer if the drivers are correctly loaded. The problem with PC's is their crappy operating system and the fact that the Hardware is sold on price with third party software. And where Apple supply everything you need to stream music and video on Wi fi network, with PC's you have to select from different sources - mixing and matching often gives problems. It's likely that Vista will be replaced later this year and that things may change but right now, I'd buy Mac

Lossless is Lossless, the reason the files are smaller is that the Data is better packed, a bit like a Zip file. Apple Lossless means DRM added.

There is a state verging on Paranoia amongst audiophiles regarding perceptual encoding. There needn't be because if you have the CD's you can experiment.

A number of properly conducted tests, properly supervised using Industry Pros, members of the Public and selected Audiophiles have shown 192K might be the point at which you can't hear the difference and you almost certainly can't at 320K.

However the Hi Fi business is a disaster area where science is dismissed and all sorts of completely stupid ideas are touted including £500 mains leads with special properties and manufacturers are actually shaking Phono leads in paint mixers because they think it will help the sound.

Most professionals agree that MP3's at say 128K sound pleasant and musical but not as good as CD and a little dull. As a result they will often "lift" the treble slightly.

Many Audiophiles are complaining about thin shrill top ends and excessive treble. This has to be their systems and herein lies the problem. The equipment they own is raved about by the press and everyone agrees it's good stuff. They are wrong, there are a number of reason why, the most obvious of which is insufficient power; Sub 100 watts amps are clipping a lot of the time (you can't hear it but if you try a bigger amp, provided it's at least as good, it will sound clearer rather than louder), some don't recover well from clip (this is called "musicality"), others are susceptible to radiation from the DACs and some companies are using forty or fifty year old designs that just don't work alongside modern technology. Even loudspeakers have upper mid band issues from crossovers that can affect them.

What this means is that if you can get a good sound from MP3's by buying a better system, you have access to enormous amounts of music you're not going to hear any other way including huge numbers of Radio stations from all over the World, many of which sound better than our own Terrestrial offerings because they are MP3 instead of MP2. You can download music you like, but not enough to pay for and you can sample more different types of music than you've ever dreamt of from sites like Amazon.com

You can also exchange music amongst friends via email.

MP3s are international currency and can be very useful so don't avoid, instead try to get good results from them

[Filterlab]

is Lossless, the reason the files are smaller is that the Data is better packed, a bit like a Zip file. Apple Lossless means DRM added.

Ahhh, now that I didn't know.

[sastusbulbas]

.

[Lowrider]

However the Hi Fi business is a disaster area where science is dismissed and all sorts of completely stupid ideas are touted including £500 mains leads with special properties and manufacturers are actually shaking Phono leads in paint mixers because they think it will help the sound.

I thought this was an audiophile forum...

[Ashley James]

It is an audiophile forum and if we all want good sound, we should concentrate on things that make a difference and try to avoid snake oil.

Think of it another way. If you fit a turbocharger to your car it will go faster as it might if you remove the hub caps (because it's lighter). Which is the better modification?