CD vs Streaming.

Printable View

08-10-2023, 07:06
Jimbo

CD vs Streaming.

I have noticed in the last year or so that there have been a number of articles stating that there has been a slow but steady CD revival after a dramatic decline up to 2021. Where as billions of CDs used to get sold they were reduced to a trickle obviously knocked on the head by the next latest and greatest technology - streaming.

My thoughts were that the main reason streaming took off was music could be so much more widely obtained and in infinite amount but foremost it was free and did not require the need for physical media. Every man and his dog took to streaming proclaiming it was the answer to all our need for music and the quality was as good as anything on any digital format as long as you subscribed to one of the better streaming companies.

CDs were abandoned in the same way vinyl was and it seemed folk just streamed. There were many arguments for it and it was generally accepted to be the future for digital music along with FBA which was quite often a ripped CD collection.

However Hifi journalists have been steadily started to review CD players again and from some mainstream companies with a view that we had abandoned CD too early and there maybe something still to be had from CD. Now I know many folk and indeed many on here never abandoned CD and used it regularly and have been happy with older players so I wonder if the latest "revival" is just the industry trying to move new boxes again proclaiming sonic benefits from "New Technological" improvements!:rolleyes:

Today I read my first article by a journalist I respect and he thought that the CD player he reviewed sounded better with digital material than any streaming service or quality he had heard. Now that maybe hype (moving boxes) or a genuine reaffirmation that hard digital media simply sounded better than streamed music or local files.

I cannot really comment myself one way or the other although I have ripped most of my CD collection to file and believed it better than CD but maybe I need to reevaluate CD again. I have access to a number of CDP but my last foray into this game ended in tears.

Has anyone compared the two formats (CD vs Streaming) and come to any conclusions themselves as to which sounds best not withstanding cost and convenience?
08-10-2023, 07:17
CageyH

CD sounds better than using internet streaming in my opinion.
However, I cannot honestly say there is a difference between a CD and local file streaming to my ears, using my equipment.
08-10-2023, 07:19
Lawrence001

I've been wondering whether my now vintage Meridian 508 can match or beat my recently acquired Innuos Zen Mini with Zen Mini PSU but they're not in the same location to compare.

If the advances in CD replay are due to recent developments in DAC chip technology then I fear not, but if it's inherent in the medium it could stand up to comparison.
08-10-2023, 07:41
walpurgis

Not felt the need to move on from CD. I have all the music I want anyway and the discs don't take up a huge amount of room (unlike my vinyl LPs :))
08-10-2023, 07:48
struth

probably not a lot in it tbh. there are a number of things that could swing it... like cd equipment, streaming gear, programs u use etc. as for cd v ripped cd... pretty much same applies
08-10-2023, 07:57
Jimbo

One of the advantages of CD is that many of us who have been knocking around a bit have plenty of these shiny discs knocking around and probably have much of the music we enjoy on this medium.

Going back to another post it maybe that the mastering on these could be advantagous too.

The only way to compare your CD vs a streamed file would be to ensure exact same master used and they were also played through the same DAC at the same levels. All a bit of a faff and probably difficult to do unless you managed to get all your ducks in a row with the right gear?
08-10-2023, 07:57
Macca

Is there a link to this review where he does the comparison?

As it happens last week I did a comparison between TEAC VRDS 701T transport and Novafidelity X50D streamer. same DAC (AQVOX).

DAC and streamer had been modified with SMPS power supplies in both replaced with linear.

CD was Joni Mitchell 'Blue' - local streaming vs transport. Comparison was done single blind. I couldn't tell them apart, I was just guessing.

I suspect it would be the same comparing with Tidal or another streaming service assuming the streaming service was providing the exact same mastering as the CD. Which they probably won't be (my CD of 'Blue' is the original release but there are multiple remasters, as with most famous albums from that era).

So if the reviewer didn't compare blind and didn't compare the same master, it's not a reliable comparison.

Just one more thing - in my comparison, using a CD transport meant the DAC was the same for both. If using a CD player it would need to be used as a transport only, or if it has a digital input the streamer would need to use that so the DAC and the output level remain the same for the comparison.

Okay, the differences between DACs can only ever be very slight due to how they work, but still a potential source of a difference that has nothing to do with format.
08-10-2023, 08:02
Jimbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

Is there a link to this review where he does the comparison?

As it happens last week I did a comparison between TEAC VRDS 701T transport and Novafidelity X50D streamer. same DAC (AQVOX).

DAC and streamer had been modified with SMPS power supplies in both replaced with linear.

CD was Joni Mitchell 'Blue' - local streaming vs transport. Comparison was done single blind. I couldn't tell them apart, I was just guessing.

I suspect it would be the same comparing with Tidal or another streaming service assuming the streaming service was providing the exact same mastering as the CD. Which they probably won't be (my CD of 'Blue' is the original release but there are multiple remasters, as with most famous albums from that era).

So if the reviewer didn't compare blind and didn't compare the same master, it's not a reliable comparison.

Just one more thing - in my comparison, using a CD transport meant the DAC was the same for both. If using a CD player it would need to be used as a transport only, or if it has a digital input the streamer would need to use that so the DAC and the output level remain the same for the comparison.

Okay, the differences between DACs can only ever be very slight due to how they work, but still a potential source of a difference that has nothing to do with format.

The reviewers thoughts were a general subjective perception and not a measured technical evaluation.

Apart from the equipment used to do any evaluation, I would say the mastering has to be the exact same before any objective conclusions can be made.
08-10-2023, 08:06
Macca

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo

The reviewers thoughts were a general subjective perception and not a measured technical evaluation.

Apart from the equipment used to do any evaluation, I would say the mastering has to be the exact same before any objective conclusions can be made.

Thought so, still it would be good to have a link to the review. Did he use the same master or even check to see if it was the same? If not I'd cross him off your list.
08-10-2023, 08:32
Jimbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

Thought so, still it would be good to have a link to the review. Did he use the same master or even check to see if it was the same? If not I'd cross him off your list.

No it was a general thought about CD compared to steaming.
08-10-2023, 09:12
Macca

If you've already copied all your CDs to hard drive I'd say stick with it, there's no intrinsic reason why a CD player would offer better quality (although depending on the CD player it might sound a bit different in presentation).

If local streaming really did offer an intrinsic SQ advantage I'd possibly go with it, but there's no reason why it should.

My reasons for sticking with playing physical CDs instead of coping them onto a hard drive have nothing to do with better sound quality.

Probably should point out that copying a CD onto a hard drive or to any other format is illegal in the UK. Although that's not why I don't do it.
08-10-2023, 09:45
struth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

If you've already copied all your CDs to hard drive I'd say stick with it, there's no intrinsic reason why a CD player would offer better quality (although depending on the CD player it might sound a bit different in presentation).

If local streaming really did offer an intrinsic SQ advantage I'd possibly go with it, but there's no reason why it should.

My reasons for sticking with playing physical CDs instead of coping them onto a hard drive have nothing to do with better sound quality.

Probably should point out that copying a CD onto a hard drive or to any other format is illegal in the UK. Although that's not why I don't do it.

i think it can be better if your cd replay isnt great but in general its the convenience that it scores in, where cd replay scores in tactility.
08-10-2023, 10:31
Jimbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

If you've already copied all your CDs to hard drive I'd say stick with it, there's no intrinsic reason why a CD player would offer better quality (although depending on the CD player it might sound a bit different in presentation).

If local streaming really did offer an intrinsic SQ advantage I'd possibly go with it, but there's no reason why it should.

My reasons for sticking with playing physical CDs instead of coping them onto a hard drive have nothing to do with better sound quality.

Probably should point out that copying a CD onto a hard drive or to any other format is illegal in the UK. Although that's not why I don't do it.

Didn't the law changed in 2014 so that you could copy CDs for personal use?
08-10-2023, 10:33
struth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Didn't the law changed in 2014 so that you could copy CDs for personal use?

yes it did... as long as its just for you to use. you can format change too.
08-10-2023, 10:35
Jimbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by struth

yes it did... as long as its just for you to use. you can format change too.

Thought so.
08-10-2023, 10:42
Barry

If you have bought the CD you own it, and IMO that means you can do whatever you like with it. And if that is to copy it to a hard drive for your own use, then so be it.
08-10-2023, 11:35
Macca

Quote:

Originally Posted by struth

yes it did... as long as its just for you to use. you can format change too.

Yes it did but it was overturned on appeal. So it's still illegal.
08-10-2023, 11:39
Macca

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry

If you have bought the CD you own it, and IMO that means you can do whatever you like with it. And if that is to copy it to a hard drive for your own use, then so be it.

I agree but the law does not. Never stopped us taping records back in the day either. The only reason I mentioned it was I don't want the forum to give the wrong impression.

I know there are some people who insist on obeying the law however silly or unenforceable it is, so just making sure it's clear to them.
08-10-2023, 13:54
struth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

I agree but the law does not. Never stopped us taping records back in the day either. The only reason I mentioned it was I don't want the forum to give the wrong impression.

I know there are some people who insist on obeying the law however silly or unenforceable it is, so just making sure it's clear to them.

the music union i think complained the court overturned it, but unless your selling the stuff etc you wont get done for making your own copy while still having the cd; probably wont even if you dont have it but you open yourself up to it. selling copies would be a BIG no-no
i think its legal in the eu as it was one of their directives
08-10-2023, 15:08
Pieoftheday

I'd go back to using CDs given the opportunity, I have everything ripped on a novafidelity x40, sounds good but I personally find scrolling through a list of albums or entering something in the search box on a tablet is soooo boring. I'd rather get off my backside and look through rows of CDs. Oops just realised its CD vs streaming :doh:
08-10-2023, 15:43
struth

not really sure what the difference is tbh bar the touchy feely of cd cases
08-10-2023, 15:51
Pieoftheday

Quote:

Originally Posted by struth

not really sure what the difference is tbh bar the touchy feely of cd cases

I'm quite a lazy person after I've done my days work so streaming or having everything ripped and easy to access should appeal to me but for me something is missing. Theres no right or wrong is there, for me though, I enjoy using the silver disc
08-10-2023, 15:56
Macca

Quote:

Originally Posted by struth

not really sure what the difference is tbh bar the touchy feely of cd cases

Browsing a physical library as opposed to scrolling down a screen?

I prefer to do the former. But it's not for everyone.

I'm not that bothered about the actual tactile bit. CD is not remotely as good as vinyl for that anyway.

Maybe there's an age thing too? When I was a teenager and got a new album it was like coming back triumphant from the hunt. You show the trophy to your mates.

For that reason I have emotional attachment to a lot of my LPs. Just taking one off the shelf and looking at the cover is an experience and a memory. My CDs are just a means to an end.
08-10-2023, 16:00
struth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

Browsing a physical library as opposed to scrolling down a screen?

I prefer to do the former. But it's not for everyone.

I'm not that bothered about the actual tactile bit. CD is not remotely as good as vinyl for that anyway.

Maybe there's an age thing too? When I was a teenager and got a new album it was like coming back triumphant from the hunt. You show the trophy to your mates.

For that reason I have emotional attachment to a lot of my LPs. Just taking one off the shelf and looking at the cover is an experience and a memory. My CDs are just a means to an end.

I get that an d I loved going through vinyl etc. Even CDs to a point but a good program will give you even more. Lots of info etc and you don't need a magnifying glass to read lol
08-10-2023, 16:19
Pieoftheday

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

Browsing a physical library as opposed to scrolling down a screen?

I prefer to do the former. But it's not for everyone.

I'm not that bothered about the actual tactile bit. CD is not remotely as good as vinyl for that anyway.

Maybe there's an age thing too? When I was a teenager and got a new album it was like coming back triumphant from the hunt. You show the trophy to your mates.

For that reason I have emotional attachment to a lot of my LPs. Just taking one off the shelf and looking at the cover is an experience and a memory. My CDs are just a means to an end.

I get that about vinyl, many happy hours In record shops, but I only have a few records left and really couldn't be arsed going back there. I have the emotional attachment to a lot of my CDs as I bought them in actual shops, though its Ebay or online shops these days
08-10-2023, 16:38
Macca

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pieoftheday

I get that about vinyl, many happy hours In record shops, but I only have a few records left and really couldn't be arsed going back there.

You sold them all? I still have all mine and have kept back one SL1200 in case I ever get the urge, but not actually played one in years now.
08-10-2023, 16:45
struth

ive still got a good wedge of vinyl. never got round to moving them on. guess they will be worth a bit so maybe should think about it.... swell maybe not;)
08-10-2023, 17:13
oceanobsession

Was using qbuzz and roon set up on a nuc , for a long time i was not always happy about the sound quality , it seemed to vary depending on the day , so i tried an old
cd player with dig out to my audio note sig 2.1 dac , and the first thing that i noticed was lower noise floor and better timing , something to do with noise on usb or
clocks maybe , now purchased a jays cdt2 mk3 , and now theres no dought in my mind it sounds better than streaming , even playing files from a hard drive requires the use of a pc of some type , phil.
,
08-10-2023, 17:15
kirstysdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by struth

ive still got a good wedge of vinyl. never got round to moving them on. guess they will be worth a bit so maybe should think about it.... swell maybe not;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

Browsing a physical library as opposed to scrolling down a screen?

I prefer to do the former. But it's not for everyone.

I'm not that bothered about the actual tactile bit. CD is not remotely as good as vinyl for that anyway.

Maybe there's an age thing too? When I was a teenager and got a new album it was like coming back triumphant from the hunt. You show the trophy to your mates.

For that reason I have emotional attachment to a lot of my LPs. Just taking one off the shelf and looking at the cover is an experience and a memory. My CDs are just a means to an end.

I've been dabbling with streaming using a Google thingy that I had languishing redundant for years until I worked out how to connect it to my phone and laptop. A mate also lent me his iFi DAC to connect to my phone, to play with long term. All a bit of a faff except for the Google thing.

Streaming for me is like listening to the radio, i.e. something on in the background while I am busy with other stuff, good in the way that DAB is, but not for serious listening.

CD is better. I like going through the CD shelves, although vinyl is more tactile. If I stream something enough and like it then I will buy the CD or record...

Plus, buying the LP or CD supports the artist, whereas streaming gives them a fraction of a penny per listen...
08-10-2023, 17:25
kirstysdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceanobsession

Was using qbuzz and roon set up on a nuc , for a long time i was not always happy about the sound quality , it seemed to vary depending on the day , so i tried an old
cd player with dig out to my audio note sig 2.1 dac , and the first thing that i noticed was lower noise floor and better timing , something to do with noise on usb or
clocks maybe , now purchased a jays cdt2 mk3 , and now theres no dought in my mind it sounds better than streaming , even playing files from a hard drive requires the use of a pc of some type , phil.
,

I have tried several PC/laptop ways of playing music and they've all been OK. But that's it. Just OK. Not great for video either.

Listening to a Faure Requiem on CD right now, really delicate, but same recording on stream lacks presence and I'm sure is compressed.
08-10-2023, 20:12
Jimbo

Had a comparison / evaluation today between CDP and FBA and tried CDP with off board DAC. Also streamed some material via Audirvana Tidal which has a 3 month trial period. I sourced the same material and mastering for all the tracks I used and kept the level the same as best I can with the Croft preamp.

The CDP used was the Rotel RCD 965Bx which use dual DACs and the ultra stable CDM4 disc transport. It is a dual bitstream CDP and uses high quality British Caps and a fully regulated high current PSU. The player also has a coax digital out so can also be used as a transport.

I used some ripped CD files so mastering was the same and I was pretty sure the tracks I picked off Tidal were from the same recording as best as I could ascertain.

I found that the CDP sounded close to the files using the same DAC which probably was not a surprise but it actually sounded better when I used the CDP own internal DAC.

I also listened to the same FBA material using the DAC with a DDC in the chain from the laptop and things did improve a fair bit. I could not replicate the same set up using the CDP as I did not have a coax to USB A cable and I am not sure if this is obtainable.

Comparing the Tidal streamed tracks was interesting and I felt they were very good. I only used regular 16 bit material and nothing hiRez.

So using the same material in each set up these were my conclusions.

1. Laptop SSD FBA + DAC + DDC gave best overall performance.

2. Rotel CDP using internal DAC.

3. Rotel CDP + DAC

4. Tidal streamed material.

I will try and dig down into the actual listening session and make some more comments on what the actual differences were later.
08-10-2023, 23:34
Lawrence001

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirstysdad

I have tried several PC/laptop ways of playing music and they've all been OK. But that's it. Just OK. Not great for video either.

Listening to a Faure Requiem on CD right now, really delicate, but same recording on stream lacks presence and I'm sure is compressed.

What's your streaming source/DAC? If you're using the Naim NDX that will need a good streaming system to make a fair comparison.
09-10-2023, 19:49
Pieoftheday

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

You sold them all? I still have all mine and have kept back one SL1200 in case I ever get the urge, but not actually played one in years now.

Gave them to a mate ,I just couldn't be bothered at the time, no regrets. Kept all my cds thought ,would have regretted losing those
10-10-2023, 14:56
Jimbo

Just a few more thoughts on the CD vs Streaming exercise I did the other day. I threw in the CDP with and without external DAC and the FBA as a local streaming comparison.

Albums used -

Love over Gold - Dire straits
Come away with me - Nora Jones

These were my listening notes:

1. Laptop SSD FBA + DAC + DDC + Linear PSU (Dual output for both DAC and DDC)

This combination gave me the best overall performance and also happens to be the best combination I have used for FBA. The DDC really does help out the DAC but after some consideration I am not so sure if I was using a level playing field in that Audirvana may have contributed something else to the sonics here?

Anyhow I noted a greater sense of ease and fluidity using this combination. There was plenty of air and a naturalness to the sound. This also provided the best soundstage depth and width.

2. Rotel CDP using internal DAC.

The Rotel CDP used on its own was different but very close to equaling the FBA from the laptop and it really was down to preference here, others may have preferred the CDP. The Rotel gave a solid detailed and very smooth performance using its dual DACs and was almost analogue sounding. On consideration I felt maybe the top end was a tad rolled off but it was easy to listen too and much preferred using its DAC and analogue output.

3. Rotel CDP + DAC

Using a separate DAC with the Rotel sounded a little artificial. Something was wrong but hard to put my finger on it. I did not really enjoy this combination as much as listening to the Rotel using its own DAC. I will try again with a "better" DAC in future to see if I can get an improvement.

4. Tidal streamed material.

Not a million miles away from the CDP but somehow less engaging. Listening to the same tracks I have on file on the laptop resulted in a more vibrant, dynamic and vivid sound. I felt there was a noticeable difference between the streamed material and the FBA so this is why I scored it the lowest.

Again I must mention that Audirvana does influence the FBA as there are a number of parameters that can be changed and how much control it has over the routing of the files through the laptop.
10-10-2023, 17:42
Macca

Tidal aren't necessarily using the same recording

Plus a lot of their catalogue is MQA so that may sound worse without full decoding.

What is the DAC? Does it have the same output level as the CD player?
10-10-2023, 18:08
kirstysdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence001

What's your streaming source/DAC? If you're using the Naim NDX that will need a good streaming system to make a fair comparison.

You're quite correct...
I've been faffing about with a few laptops etc. and a iPhone X into a iFi Hip-dac. But my usual is a Google Chromecast 2nd gen.
For convenience Chromecast is "good enough". For serious listening I prefer the CDX... (which was as rough as a badger's until I had it seen to!)
10-10-2023, 18:10
kirstysdad

4. Tidal streamed material.

Not a million miles away from the CDP but somehow less engaging. Listening to the same tracks I have on file on the laptop resulted in a more vibrant, dynamic and vivid sound. I felt there was a noticeable difference between the streamed material and the FBA so this is why I scored it the lowest.

.[/QUOTE]

My experience precisely.
10-10-2023, 19:00
Jimbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macca

Tidal aren't necessarily using the same recording

Plus a lot of their catalogue is MQA so that may sound worse without full decoding.

What is the DAC? Does it have the same output level as the CD player?

Rotel CDP is 2 Vrms and I think the DAC is the same.
05-11-2023, 23:34
allthingsanalogue

This has just replaced my Melco N100 and Bryston BDA-2 DAC. To me, it's superior.

https://i.imgur.com/maRrPN5.jpg

All times are GMT. The time now is 18:43.